But Jesus can't be same as God from a GOD viewpoint.
Joey Jo-Jo
JoinedPosts by Joey Jo-Jo
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172
Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute
by oldlightnewshite ini thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.
maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.
if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.
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586/7 vs. 607 (another one) Critique my letter please....
by bigmouth insince moving back to another town i've met up with an elder i knew from way back.
(i met him coming out of a salvation army shop.).
he visited me at home a few weeks ago, and as i seem to be getting more comfortable at fading i invited him in and told him i was very concerned over the 607 bce.
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Joey Jo-Jo
debator -King Neb? I thought it was Jesus ***scratches head***
"The bible holds a lot of prophecies as Jesus himself revealed which "tense" is never really an issue since Jesus fulfilled prophecies written about David apparently for David himself in the present, past or future tense."
Maybe you should look up the word prophecy, and like I said Jesus didn't speak in a past tense.. or present.
"For the record witnesses say and I agree that any interpretation of Bible prophecy is only a "Ccurrent understanding" prophecy is subjective. We have to research the Bible and correlate that with fulfillment in the world around us so it is not an exact science (nor is it meant to be) but unity demands we have to be in agreement with each other as Christians and I think the "times" prophecy is a solid one."
What the GB teaches, they teach has fact, and if I openly held this view (a current understanding like its not solid) you have written, I would be disfellowshiped. This also ties in with Matt (25 I think), does a good tree bear bad fruit? or vice versa?
"lowliest" is in it's first fulfilment a reference to king Neb a singular person. I'm surprised some translations make it plural anyway?"
If you look up hebrew its also plural.
Joey
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Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute
by oldlightnewshite ini thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.
maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.
if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.
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Joey Jo-Jo
Thanks debator, im sure that you are posting this information with good intentions (you remind myself a bit some time back), I believe that debates are important to clear understandings.
While I wanted to refer to John 1:1 "a god" or 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (NIV) or a God (NWT), Im not trying to push the conversation to trinity or monotheism but rather scripture accuracy.
In that sense, for the sake of scripture it should be translated without agenda:-
Firstly the original manuscripts also say "a god" specifically the sahidic Coptic
http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/
The Sahidic Coptic was translated in the 3rd century, about a hundred years before the Trinity became official church doctrine. The Sahidic Coptic calls the Word in John 1:1c "a god," not "god" or "the god."
I have been doing some research on this, according to wikipedia
The collection of manuscripts of Sahidic translations is often designated by cop sa in academic writing and critical apparatuses . The first translation into the Sahidic dialect was made at the end of the 2nd century in Upper Egypt , where Greek was less well understood . So the Sahidic is famous for being the first major literary development of the Coptic language, though literary work in the other dialects soon followed. By the ninth century, Sahidic was gradually replaced by neighbouring Bohairic, and disappeared. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_versions_of_the_Bible
also has wobble pointed out
"1) The Coptic language uses the indefinite article differently than English, so it does not prove that the Word is in any way not God.
2) This is still a translation of a copy of many copies, we do not have an autograph copy, or anything very near it, so to argue over every jot and tittle is not only not scholarly."
From what I gather Sahidic Coptic is not the nail in the coffin, do you agree?
And in the original Greek John 1:1c lacks the definite Article which means translation can be a god but not G-od which presumes a definite where there is none.
So this would be what is according to some scholars but not all
According to the Kingdom Interlinear 1985
however from this is not the understanding of all scholars,
This is what one of them had to say
"In the beggining was the Word{logos} and the Word was with God, {ton theon} and the word was God {theos}
Contrary to the translations of the emphatic diaglott and NWT, the Greek grammatical construction leaves no doubt whatsoever that this is the only possible rendering of the text. The subject of the sentence is Word {logos}, the verb was. There can be no direct object following " was ," since according to grammatical usage intransitive verbs take no objects but take instead predicated nominatives, which refer back to the subject-in this case word {logos } . In fact, the late New Testament Greek scholar Dr. E. C. Colwell formulated a rule that clearly states that a definite predicate nominative (in this case theos-God) never takes an article when it precedes the verb ( was ), as we find in John 1:1. It is therefore easy to see that no article is needed for theos since theos is the predicate nominative of was in the in the third sentence-clause of the verse and must refer back to the subject, Word {logos}."
So from this if we apply the NWT rule for mat3:9 6:24, luk1:35 78: 2:40, john 1:6 12-13 18: 3:2 21: 9:16 33:,rom 1:7 17-18, 1 cor 1:3 15:10, phi 2:11-13, etc it wont make sense. Do you agree?
Trinity doctrine demands that John 1:1c translates John 1:1 G-od rather than "a god" so the incorrect "G-od" has been promulgated in a religion overun by trinitarian doctrine. But a few translations throughout the centuries have not bowed to this doctrinal pressure including ours.
While I do agree with religions having their own agendas, I think it's more important to have a clear understanding than finger pointing.
The Word was a god.” (The New Testament in an Improved Version)
Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott, "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."
**Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768,"and was himself a divine person"
Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"
La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928: “and the Word was a divine being.”
John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829, "the Logos was a god"
Goodspeed's An American Translation, 1939, "the Word was divine"
Moffatt's The Bible, 1972, "the Logos was divine"
International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001, "the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word]Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694, "and the Word was a god"
Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863, [A]s a god the Command was"
Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822, "The Word was a God"
Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885,
"[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word"Belsham N.T. 1809 “the Word was a god”
Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879, "And the logos was a god"
Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156). "a God"
George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911, [A]nd (a) God was the word"
James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958, [T]he Word was a God"
Thanks, Ill look into these.
Joey
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586/7 vs. 607 (another one) Critique my letter please....
by bigmouth insince moving back to another town i've met up with an elder i knew from way back.
(i met him coming out of a salvation army shop.).
he visited me at home a few weeks ago, and as i seem to be getting more comfortable at fading i invited him in and told him i was very concerned over the 607 bce.
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Joey Jo-Jo
debator how about debating my example.
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586/7 vs. 607 (another one) Critique my letter please....
by bigmouth insince moving back to another town i've met up with an elder i knew from way back.
(i met him coming out of a salvation army shop.).
he visited me at home a few weeks ago, and as i seem to be getting more comfortable at fading i invited him in and told him i was very concerned over the 607 bce.
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Joey Jo-Jo
Problem 1
JW’s see themselves as the teachers, not the student so when you are directly affirming something they will automatically take it as wrong without doing their home work (because they believe JW’s are Gods chosen people). Thinking their Gods people they will be more than happy to help.
Solution 1
Ask them for help, as it has been said before, let them find the answers for themselves, this way they have no choice then to do their own research and on top of that you can disagree with their points
Problem 2
Again, thinking they are Gods chosen people they might ignore secular dating (even though 536BCE is from secular dating), they can also ignore bible reasoning with the usual “but the watchtower says..”
Solution 2
This would be up to the person but I would go with bible reasoning first, Gods sword.
E.g.
Where does it say in the bible that Jesus in speaking of these gentile times had in mind the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar's madness mentioned in Daniel 4?
At Luke 21:24, we read Jesus' words in which he makes specific mention of "the appointed times of the nations": "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." It was in Jerusalem that kings in the royal line of David were said to sit representatively on Jehovah's throne, but Jesus says that "Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations" until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled," indicating that Jerusalem was being "trampled on" at the time that Jesus spoke these words and that this "trampling" would continue until the fulfillment of these "appointed times of the nations."
Jesus' mention of these "appointed times of the nations" or "times of the Gentiles" (KJV) harken back to the "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy in which the prophet records the words of an angelic "watcher" from heaven, who commanded the chopping down of an immense tree that had been "visible to the extremity of the whole earth," whose "rootstock" or tree stump had been left in the earth bound with iron and copper, so that "seven times" might pass over this tree stump before it was loosed from that which bound it, and thus prevented this tree from growing, "to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind." (Daniel 4:11, 15-17)
1- I still don’t see the link, his there anything more specific in scripture?
2- Also how would Jesus be prophesising (because everything was spoken with future tense) something that occurred in the past, aren’t all prophecies future events?
3- Lastly “he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind."”, I have been told that this lowliest one of manking is referring to Jesus, however why is the NWT bible the only one that does not translate this in it’s plural form?
'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.' (NIV)
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. (KJV)
"This sentence is by the decree of the angelic watchers
And the decision is a command of the holy ones,
In order that the living may (A) know
That the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind,
And (B) bestows it on whom He wishes
And sets over it the (C) lowliest of men." (NASB)Gentile Times reconsidered is the best for biblical and secular reasoning, there is a lot more that could be added.
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Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute
by oldlightnewshite ini thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.
maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.
if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.
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Joey Jo-Jo
debator, could you tell me why the new world translation is the only bible that has john 1:1 as "the Word was a God"?
Thanks,
Joey
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Girl suspended from school for wearing nose ring claims her religious rights are being violated
by JimmyPage inthe american civil liberties union claims in a lawsuit filed wednesday that a north carolina school violated the constitutional rights of a 14-year-old student by suspending her for wearing a nose piercing.. the lawsuit from the state chapter of the aclu seeks a court order allowing ariana iacono to return immediately to clayton high school, which has kept her on suspension for four weeks since classes started.. the complaint hinges on iacono's claim that her nose piercing isn't just a matter of fashion, but an article of faith.
she and her mother, nikki, belong to a small religious group called the church of body modification, which sees tattoos, piercings and the like as channels to the divine.
"this is a case about a family's right to send a 14-year-old honor student to public school without her being forced to renounce her family's religious beliefs," wrote lawyers from the aclu and the raleigh firm ellis & winters in a brief supporting the lawsuit.. the johnston county school system has a dress code banning facial piercings, along with short skirts, sagging pants, "abnormal hair color" and other items deemed distracting or disruptive.. but the dress code also allows for exemptions based on "sincerely held religious belief," and says, "the principal or designees shall not attempt to determine whether the religious beliefs are valid, but only whether they are central to religious doctrine and sincerely held.".
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Joey Jo-Jo
The book of Genesis is the first book that mentions nose piercing but that doesn't meant it's divine lol.
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Bill O'Reilly vs. Bill Maher On Religion
by leavingwt in.
bill o'reilly vs. bill maher on religion - 09/30/10 .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zref_lpir_k.
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Joey Jo-Jo
When Bill had an interview with Steven Hassan he was always cutting him off, looks like he has not changed.
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UFO's: Are they from outer space or a orchestrated event from earth?
by cameo-d indo you believe it is some government plot?
do you think et's are scouting us out...and for what reason?.
do you think abduction hysteria will be the next wave of weird news to set people on the edge of their seats?.
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Joey Jo-Jo
These UFO's are summoned by people through pagan and satanic worship. Book of thoth fans would know what im talking about (I dont recommend that anyone reads this book ).
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From hard core JW Christian to Atheist within 5 months?
by cyberjesus ini found this video and it summarizes it very simple.
i hope you enjoy it.
life is too short to waste it on fairy tales.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0wwzc-vz7y&feature=related.
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Joey Jo-Jo
I dont want to elaborate in great detail because some JW's who I had spoken to might pick who I am.
I dont brag about this to everyone because people either believe me or look at me like im some nut case lol, but when I see threads and people who came out and no longer believe in a God at least I can help them out (out of good intentions) to at least acknowledge satan through my experiences.
